What will be the future for Punisher on the big screen?..

[Travelling Salesman]

well - i have a beef with some of the movie going audiences of today, but thats a whole other topic in general lol...

and i understand what your saying - but to say its as cut and dry as "Hell kills - thats it - unmarketable" i think is really selling the character short.... in a rough summary of who that character is - your absolutely right - but Why? - the Why in stories is the reason people watch movies, or read books to begin with. - so if it takes another origin, to introduce Frank to moviegoers years from now, then so be it.... and who's to say that a Punisher movie can't have some depth and weight to it.... 15 years ago, could anyone envision a batman movie with the amount of depth and weight that Batman Begins or The Dark Knight had? - i doubt it..

and your right - there isn't much that does set Frank Castle apart from the Paul Kerseys of the cinema world - but instead of trying to infuse the character with what he doesn't have (thats what has been the problem with the other films, the filmmakers try and add their own interpretation to Frank, instead of looking at him for what he truly is) - so play up the strengths.... yes, his story is one that has become cliche' - its the classic Revenge story... but if you twist certain aspects around with the writing, and how the plot unfolds - the movie starts to take on a life of its own...... In all honesty, all the Dark Knight was, was an A typical crime drama just with Batman characters.... but the writing is what sold it.

You're right a Punisher film just needs to be a quality crime drama, with some good shootouts/fights. And you know I think Jane understood that, given his prior/recent comments about the sequel being more like Taxi Driver/a Walter Hill film. Whether that would have been better or worse than PWZ, we'll never know (but probably most likely a little better).

I wouldn't say it was the filmmakers interpretations of Frank that was off, each Frank Castle was basically characterized right, '89 and '08 had him as the hardened vigilante and '04 had him as the broken man that downward spirals into this monster. And again to paraphrase Jane, the studios just seemed to want to stick goofy zig in a Punisher movie. It really is odd.

[DJX187]

too a degree, they understood who Frank was - but i still feel like they looked at him as not having much depth, so they needed to add their own personal touches/influences on the character to really reinforce the idea that he is a broken man....(in case of the 2004 movie) the guy just lost his family, we can feel for what he must be going through - but we don't need to see it drawn out over the course of the film, in the manner in which it was - and there was no real progression that we saw from him to warrant having to sit through all that... all they needed to do was pick up an issue and read, and really dissect his character and story, and they'd get it.

i think these movies also hurt from lack of Frank inner monologue - because that gives us a chance as an audience to get inside his head, instead of just having him stand there and brood into the camera.... its not something that would be needed all the time, but i envision a Scorsese-like Frank Castle narrative over a future Punisher movie

[Travelling Salesman]

Actually I think his characterization was more or less the same as it was in the Year One story. The biggest change I guess in that regard is, since they didn't have the reporter character with him, they removed the feeling of hope he was getting when he thought everything was coming together. But, I get what you're saying, it would have been nice if an element like that was there.

As for personal touches to the character, there was a bit of a "Man with No Name" vibe, which I think was an interesting choice to go for, and worked quite well.

[DJX187]

As for personal touches to the character, there was a bit of a "Man with No Name" vibe, which I think was an interesting choice to go for, and worked quite well.

i don't mind little nods - or paying tribute... because i too (if i am lucky enough to make films one day) would probably pay tribute to some of the movies i grew up watching.... but for my own personal taste, it was too much of the Leone Man with No Name influence on the character.... the little showdown at the bank, where he kills the two thugs - was ok - and it worked for me... but it was too much of it over the whole rest of the film, and it bothered me (especially at the end when Frank confronted Saint)..

sidenote: I am sitting here watching Black Hawk Down - and i can't help but to salivate over the thought of a Punisher movie being done in this style and tone.... Ridley Scott is amazing.

[UncleElio]

You're right a Punisher film just needs to be a quality crime drama, with some good shootouts/fights. And you know I think Jane understood that, given his prior/recent comments about the sequel being more like Taxi Driver/a Walter Hill film. Whether that would have been better or worse than PWZ, we'll never know (but probably most likely a little better).

  I really don't know how he got the idea that Punisher should be more like Taxi Driver.  I feel he should stay away from the character if he thinks that.  For one Taxi Driver was nothing like the Punisher.  The Punisher doesn't spend most of his time crying about some prostitute that needs to be rescued, he just does it.  The Punisher doesn't stand in front of a mirror and say "you talking to me?"  for 2 hours straight.  Don't get me wrong it was a good film (although I thought the main character taking his date to a porno flick was a little over the top)  I just think people compare Taxi Driver to Punisher  because they all know Robert Deneiro  would make a really good Punisher. 

I wouldn't say it was the filmmakers interpretations of Frank that was off, each Frank Castle was basically characterized right, '89 and '08 had him as the hardened vigilante and '04 had him as the broken man that downward spirals into this monster. And again to paraphrase Jane, the studios just seemed to want to stick goofy zig in a Punisher movie. It really is odd.

Chuck Dixon said it best regarding the 04 film. 

My biggest problem is that they played Frank as a detective instead of a soldier. My Punisher would have killed John Travolta as soon as he knew Travolta was the one who ordered his family killed. He wouldn't have investigated and then set up an overly-elaborate sting operation. The movie spent far too much time treading water. Were I writing it? Frank would have found out that Travolkta was his target and then gone through Travolta's stronghold like a dose of Ex-lax. Travolta is the only one who escapes the carnage and goes into the witness protection program to save his own ass. Frank must then hunt his quarry without harming any law enforcement personnel. In the end, the mob learns of Travolta's whereabouts as well and it's a Wild Bunch type stand off between Frank and some federal marshals and an amry of hitmen.'

I couldn't have said it better myself.  Nobody will seem to get it right unless they start letting these proven comic writers hand in scripts.  I was dismayed Lexi was writing the script to War zone because shes only had a limited amount of time to review the Punisher character.  I was equally frustrated that we couldn't get a comic adaption ala Watchmen style.  Garth Ennis was the man who ressurected the character, why couldn't they follow his model? 

BTW any more news on The Punisher live action series?  Have they totally scrapped it?  It would be cool if they brought all the old school Punisher stories to the screen. 

[Kevin]

BTW any more news on The Punisher live action series?  Have they totally scrapped it?  It would be cool if they brought all the old school Punisher stories to the screen. 

Oh my god, welcome to 2005, where Lionsgate isn't trying to zig the Punisher in to the ground.  I don't think they ever made any progress on that.

[UncleElio]

Well if they don't start working on a new film, or direct to dvd movie, I'm praying the rights to Punisher go back to Marvel Disney and we can finally get a violent decent film under the Touchstone name (or Marvel Knights).

[Travelling Salesman]

 I really don't know how he got the idea that Punisher should be more like Taxi Driver.  I feel he should stay away from the character if he thinks that.  For one Taxi Driver was nothing like the Punisher.  The Punisher doesn't spend most of his time crying about some prostitute that needs to be rescued, he just does it.  The Punisher doesn't stand in front of a mirror and say "you talking to me?"  for 2 hours straight.  Don't get me wrong it was a good film (although I thought the main character taking his date to a porno flick was a little over the top)  I just think people compare Taxi Driver to Punisher  because they all know Robert Deneiro  would make a really good Punisher.  

I think he meant more tone than character wise (though they are both crazed Vietnam vets who turn vigilante), but a Punisher movie with that tone and grit seems perfect for a Punisher film.

I couldn't have said it better myself.  Nobody will seem to get it right unless they start letting these proven comic writers hand in scripts.  I was dismayed Lexi was writing the script to War zone because shes only had a limited amount of time to review the Punisher character.  I was equally frustrated that we couldn't get a comic adaption ala Watchmen style.  Garth Ennis was the man who ressurected the character, why couldn't they follow his model?  

I think she did say she read through all MAX comics among others, and if that is what her idea of a Punisher MAX movie was for better or worse, I don't think more time would have made all that much of a difference.

[UncleElio]

I think she did say she read through all MAX comics among others, and if that is what her idea of a Punisher MAX movie was for better or worse, I don't think more time would have made all that much of a difference.

Reminds me of putting off studying for a math final until the day before the test, and yet I wonder how I got a zero.  I know she said she read through them, but she only had a limited amount of time to do so.  Still bad choice on Marvel to whore out Punisher to Lionsgate.  It is so easy to take Punisher's methods to the big screen and have it be the next big action flick.  I guess since Batman went through it's trials, (Shumacher, the Batussi) I suppose I can wait another 5 to 10 years to see a decent Punisher flick. 

[Travelling Salesman]

Reminds me of putting off studying for a math final until the day before the test, and yet I wonder how I got a zero.  I know she said she read through them, but she only had a limited amount of time to do so.  Still bad choice on Marvel to whore out Punisher to Lionsgate.  It is so easy to take Punisher's methods to the big screen and have it be the next big action flick.  I guess since Batman went through it's trials, (Shumacher, the Batussi) I suppose I can wait another 5 to 10 years to see a decent Punisher flick. 

She was signed on in June and started shooting in December, so I think 6 or so months is a decent amount of time to go over the Punisher comics, not to mention she already was working on an existing script.

The only reason Lionsgate got the character is because they bought Artisan who owned the rights. And you know Marvel is just as much to blame for the problems with the films, though they weren't in complete control they had a pretty big say in stuff.

[UncleElio]

I don't blame Lexi at all, she did the best she could with what she had to work with and having to deal with the politics on the set.  The higher ups were giving her crap for what she posted on her blog.  Still I wish I met her before she took on the project, I would have bought her a 1000.00 steak dinner trying to convince her the only way you could have a decent Punisher film is adapting all of the max comics Watchmen style.  I think she's the type of person who would take me seriously.  She wouldn't have had to cram so much of great Punisher elements into one film.  Anyway I firmly believe if they adapted all of the Max stories from beginning to end then we would have our perfect Punisher film.  I just finished re-reading part one of the Nicky Cavella storyline (my 60th time) absolute brilliance, I think Garth could make it as a film writer or director.   But thats just my opinion, I suppose Hollywood is full of red tape trying to satisfy bankers and stockholders who think they know what the fans want. 
 

[Kevin]

From what I understand, the politics on the set were limited to GAH showing up every couple of weeks and trying to take over the production.

Lexi has said plenty of times though that she got what she wanted on screen, except for the music in the film. The heavy duty politics started during editing when LGF's marketing department decided they were going to zig all over the film's marketing and pretty much on Lexi herself when Comicon rolled around. But one way or another, Lexi pretty much won the editing battle too. Otherwise you would've seen some pretty different zig on screen, including references to Castle as a former FBI agent, and most certainly you would NOT have seen any of the central park scenery.

I should say (though I don't know this as a fact) I have a suspicion that LGF had the basic plot locked in before Lexi got to tinker with it. Castle attacks Cesare's mansion, chases down Rusotti and accidentally kills an FBI agent, and goes through a morality check before he gets back in gear to save the FBI agent's family from Jigsaw. I imagine to change any of that, you would have had to take Jon Feltheimer out for a steak dinner.

I just think it's a shame it all went down the way it did... I personally would have liked a sequel done by Lexi. The MAX arc she wished to base it on was a ziging cool choice, a great story though not one that most people think of (and no, it wasn't the terrible first Barracuda arc.) 

[Travelling Salesman]

I don't blame Lexi at all, she did the best she could with what she had to work with and having to deal with the politics on the set.  The higher ups were giving her crap for what she posted on her blog.  Still I wish I met her before she took on the project, I would have bought her a 1000.00 steak dinner trying to convince her the only way you could have a decent Punisher film is adapting all of the max comics Watchmen style.  I think she's the type of person who would take me seriously.  She wouldn't have had to cram so much of great Punisher elements into one film.  Anyway I firmly believe if they adapted all of the Max stories from beginning to end then we would have our perfect Punisher film.  I just finished re-reading part one of the Nicky Cavella storyline (my 60th time) absolute brilliance, I think Garth could make it as a film writer or director.   But thats just my opinion, I suppose Hollywood is full of red tape trying to satisfy bankers and stockholders who think they know what the fans want. 

She had a chance to take it seriously, and chose to go the camp route with it. I don't know how she read through the MAX series and and thought - gory campfest. She brought style, but no real substance to the film in my view, and frankly even if it did good, I wouldn't want her to come back in any capacity really.

I don't think the marketing screwed the film over that much, I think it was more or less the same as the 2004 film, I mean for me at least, I saw plenty of ads and posters for it. Now the release date, they screwed the pooch just like the release '04 against Kill Bill, Lionsgate is a weird company. Then again maybe the rumors were true and they saw it and had no faith in it, simple as that,.

Regarding the script, more or less there were certain elements that were probably locked in place, going all the back to when Jane was still signed, and I imagine that's what he fought the studio about before leaving. And from what I remember of the commentary, she mentions how she really didn't care one way or another about the Central Park stuff and wasn't going to include it until she saw it in editing.

[Kevin]

Sorry, no matter what way you cut it, the Punisher represents hardcore camp. His quest, though inspired by powerful feelings, is artificial (it's never been done, to the best of my knowledge.) Insane levels of gore are absolutely campy and damn if this movie didn't take every single cue for gore from the comics. Every comic Frank's ever been in has played up his thirst for evil blood, the excessive villainy of his enemies, and the reprehensibly ugly situations that arise due to the conflict. In fact, that's a pretty good summary of everything a Punisher comic should be.

Vengeance, villainy, and violence.

And that's exactly how War Zone was made.

I don't think the marketing screwed the film over that much, I think it was more or less the same as the 2004 film, I mean for me at least, I saw plenty of ads and posters for it. Now the release date, they screwed the pooch just like the release '04 against Kill Bill, Lionsgate is a weird company. Then again maybe the rumors were true and they saw it and had no faith in it, simple as that,.

Marketing isn't just about announcing your product, it's about convincing people to check it out. Obviously that didn't happen and it all goes back to marketing taking their pound of flesh from Lexi. That's not conjecture, that's a fact.

Regarding the script, more or less there were certain elements that were probably locked in place, going all the back to when Jane was still signed, and I imagine that's what he fought the studio about before leaving. And from what I remember of the commentary, she mentions how she really didn't care one way or another about the Central Park stuff and wasn't going to include it until she saw it in editing.

That's how it went, they didn't intend to use the video footage except to capture some still frames. Conceptually, they shouldn't have been re-visiting his origin if this was to be a story that took place some years later... that's natural. But who would turn down that powerful footage once they sat down and took a look at it? Lionsgate, that's who. No matter when Lexi decided she liked it, she carried the banner on that one. She towed the line for the fans and she gets 100% of the credit for it being in the movie.

[Travelling Salesman]

Gonna have to agree to disagree on what makes a Punisher comic/film good. You can have vengeance, villainy and violence, and not have it come off as high camp - I was OK with the violence in the movie (except for the Ink scene, that was just too ridiculous). But that's the choice she went for and in my view it was a terrible one. You may like it, and that's fine, that's like me me digging the tone Hensleigh was going for with his film, I'm sure most of the people on here hate that.

I don't know how Lexi had a "pound of flesh" taken from her in marketing, rarely does a director have anything to do with that aspect. Elaborate on that.

Regardless the Punisher seems to be a cursed property, I mean all the director's who have done a film have been sent to director's jail. Though Goldblatt was just an editor dipping his toes in the directing pool, so his film career wasn't really affected at all.